This recommendation works with many other old school muscle cars that need a little refresh (Chevy Nova, Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, Trans Am, etc.). Internally they are the same, same displacement, everything. Like the LS2, the LS3/L92 block will take a 4.00-inch and slightly larger stroke for 416-427cid with the right piston selection. For nearly 30 years, I've had a fascination with restomods. Hooker, CPP, JBA, and a host of companies make affordable long- and mid-length header options. Depending on which application the bracket was designed for would determine the last digit. The difference between these heads are simple, the amount of cfm the heads can flow determine how efficient they are and how much power they can handle. Make sure to not cut corners when it comes to the electrical system. And, there are a lot of other considerations that some people just dont think even think about. Since we began, weve developed many parts and are continuously working on developing more to provide you with the ability to find everything you need under one roof. The plant would see these codes and know which parts to include on the vehicle or which parts to leave off. Additionally, any aluminum LS engine will actually be LIGHTER than the turbocharged 4 cylinder engine that the 944 came with. The difference in displacement is due to the 3.27-inch stroke crank on the LR4. Welcome to The LS Swap Guide presented by ICT Billet! 911 handling is literally world class, and youll have a fast Porsche once all is said and done. See link to shop ICT Billet Ignition Coils. Related: 9 of the Best New Muscle Cars to Buy in 2020. These are the stock bolt torque specs, if you are running ARP bolts then refer to the instructions that came with the bolts for their torque specs. We bought a 1959 Chevrolet 3100 pickup truck and I had to decide what type of engine to put in it. I had the drive shaft shop build a new 3" aluminum shaft with new yoke and joints. The bottom line is this, I highly recommend bringing an expert with you to evaluate a used LS engine. The factory fuel lines are not very universal, they are made exactly to fit the vehicle they are in. That long crankshaft will only work with a flat flexplate compared to the dished plate on standard length crankshafts. Just about any LS oil pan with fit just about any LS engine. The final phase will doing 4L80E swap but I want to get the LS running with the TH400 first. Whichever way you decide to go, they will need to know which reluctor you have, where your cam sensor is located, and what pulse your cam sensor is. If digital units arent in the budget, the OEM gauges can be modified to work with a couple of adapter parts. I plan on using the square body LS swap mounts from DIY4X. Keep in mind which power steering pump you have in conjunction with the rest of the accessory drive because pulley size comes in to play to make sure you have the correct length belt. All three of these GM transmissions can be cost-effectively sourced if money is an issue. The LS7 was built for a 4.00-inch stroke, but can easily handle up to a 4.125-inch stroke and 441cid. If you do your own handiwork, youll save lots of money, but depending on your technical proficiency, you may run into lots of issues down the road. Thanks guys! Same Part# 551577-3 is same bracket system but for a Truck engine with stock crank pulley. From the intake to the oil pan, there are multiple vendors out there that most likely supply any part that you will really need to complete your swap without any fabrication. However, not every oil pan will fit your particular car. Speed or prestige, take your pick. I dont recommend trying this on your own, maybe thats just me? Only modification to make that work so far was drill holes on the fan shroud to lower it. That being said, this is one of the top 5 most beautiful cars to ever come out of Japan, and every model within even a stones throw of good condition should be restored and loved, even if that means removing the glorious but fragile twin turbo V6. Regardless, please enjoy The Definitive Guide To An LS Engine Swap. Next up is how to keep your transplanted LS cool in the hot summer fun you are about to have with it. The early design is the most common, which is based off the original LS1 ("241" casting) head. I've always been the "car guy". When it comes to the torque converter on an LS swap you have a few different options. So let's start from the beginning. What is a RPO code? You have a huge amount of options here. The car and Corvette systems are both tucked up close to the block and will fit in most conversions. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for GM 6.0L L76 361HP V8 Engine / 6L80E 6 Speed Auto Transmission LS Swap Donor Kit at the best The best bet on your end will be to find a craigslist example with some upgrades (coilovers, brakes, bushings, etc.) Ill use the stock supply and return fuel lines since my Suburban came with TBI. To be honest, we've used most of them, and they all get the job done. Theres plenty of room under the hoods the factory truck intake, oil pan and accessory drive will fit without much modification. Secondly, the aftermarket has several choices that range from adapter plates to complete conversion kits that are specially engineered for each application.. The cheapest alternative is to go to a salvage yard and pull a complete system off of a junker. Earlier designs are oval. If the vehicle you are swapping the LS engine into is a TBI equipped vehicle youll still need to upgrade the in-tank pump, but its a fairly simple upgrade since the tank is already designed for an in-tank pump. If we could find the guy at GM that decided to standardize the back of the LS block to the same basic bolt pattern of an older GM engine, we would buy him a six-pack. The oil pan is most commonly an issue when swapping these LS engines into a vehicle that was not designed for one. Sure, we would all love a shiny new LS3 crate engine from Chevrolet Performance or a rebuilt 5.3L long-block from Summit Racing, but once we crunch the numbers that's not always possible. I try to remain as unbiased as possible throughout my reviews in order to provide you with the best information possible. These are more suited to high compression builds with larger valves and porting, but pale in comparison to the LS6-based "799" castings from the L33. If you complete this swap, youll attract the attention of literally every man over the age of 50 no matter where you go, so be prepared to answer tons of questions. [For more info check out the book GM LS-Series Cylinder Head Guide from CarTech.]. Dont count out GMs cast units either. These adaptor harnesses are handy if you are trying to make an LS you acquire with a harness you already have. ICT Billet makes all kinds of adapters to make pretty much any throttle body work with your application. The most common is the 105 amp alternator found on the truck engines. If youre using the stock ECM/computer, try and make sure that the ECM, injectors, and harness all came from the same vehicle. Go with a name brand on these, and you should be fine. Pasted as rich text. What if you get tired of stock power? We get alot of phone calls asking if a LS7 intake will bolt onto a LS3 head because they received a killer deal on an LS7 FAST intake. that has some engine issue thats preventing it from running properly/running at all. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. Will post details and pictures after I have it in my garage. Classic muscle car looks with modern muscle car power; its a match made in heaven. One is to use a transmission that came behind an LS engine from the factory, typically a 4L60E or a 4L80E. I hope you find this guide helpful and informative. How does this line item fit into your overall budget? Usually the answer is yes. via Motor1. A sensor for an electric gauge would work just the same but with wires. Example: the LS1 has a cathedral port head, compared to the LS3, which has a rectangle port head. The LS7 & LSX heads have a different bolt pattern which make their heads and intakes not so interchangeable with the rest of the LS family. Getting a full donor car is good because you can be sure everything works together. firs off, you need to do a little research on the ol gen 3 series engines. A vehicle that has all the sports car trappings, with an engine that is prone to grenade-ing itself. My idle time is spent shopping for cars I can't afford. and then it breaks. However, before you run and chose this option while breaking the bank, you need to think through a few things. Its not the end of the world but its another expense that will add to the total cost of the project and make it take longer. Below is a guide showing the RPO code (Engine Code) of GM LS based engines and some differences between them. Well, these are definitely required for the LS engine swap. A common swap is a 6.0L LS based engine, for their power and reliability, but in the '99-'00 they came with a "long crankshaft". Keep in mind not every injector is the correct height, or size to fit in any intake and fuel rail. With the standard length crankshaft you need a dished flexplate & NO spacer. Some people take the opportunity here to upgrade a few things as well, whether that means installing a cold air intake, or perhaps some LS-specific headers. Porsche Cayman Porsche Cayman with an LS3 - Driftworks on youtube.com That being said, a low mile powertrain as such would easily bring 3500++ I'd say if you could pick the car up for 5K or less, it's going to be a money maker. The LS2 was essentially an aluminum version of the 6.0L truck block with flat-top pistons,LS6heads, and an LS1 cam. But what if you dont want your car to be tame? The shops that I spoke with reported the challenge of helping a customer stuck with a hodgepodge install. Free shipping for many products! Morris, Illinois. The 4.8L LR4 and 5.3L LM7, L59 and LM4 have become something of internet folklore - make 1,000hp with your junkyard engine! The best way of doing this is to pull your donor engine from a running and driving vehicle, that way you know that it is in good working order. Non-Pro-Tip. Its nothing short of amazing. The E36 M3 is also the much more popular track day option, so track day parts for this chassis are going to be incredibly plentiful when compared to the 944. Moreover, there are a lot of guides and manuals to accomplish this. In addition, all LS engines feature a new bolt pattern for the motor mount and require adapter kits to retrofit these in older applications. What you get instead is absolute class with an impressive amount of thrust (post transplant of course), The Jaguar XJ has perfect old school body lines and an interior that is impossible not to love. Any sort of EFI system will require at least one O2 bung on your exhaust. Again if its from a zl1 get the intercooler, intercooler pump. I get it, why am I putting an oil pan in the definitive guide to an LS engine swap? What are your goals and budget for the engine swap? BMW E36 M3 with an S54 engine swap. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. These bolts allow more clamping force when two metals are expanding and contracting, the bolt will move with it instead of fighting against and potentinally breaking. Trailblazer Super Sports are a good source for a 6.0 with a 4L70E Overdrive. Basically, I got the impression that everyone who wrote about it seemed to be trying to sell an LS engine or their parts and services for an LS engine swap. This "spacing" is determined by the crank pulley that you have, or will be getting. The advantages and disadvantages are fairly obvious. This code is pretty much the DNA of your vehicle. Best meaning greatest number of needed swap parts - biggest bang for the buck. any 99 and up LS1 is a good engine, 98's are still good, just kind of the red headed step child. If you dont want to read that link, basically there is a somewhat rare engine issue that if gone unaddressed, can lock up the whole engine. Any other engine can use a variety of OEM or aftermarket solutions for the truck, Corvette, or earlier F-body style arrangements. WebFind many great new & used options and get the best deals for 97-04 Chevy GM Corvette 5.7L V8 LS1 LS Engine Swap Donor Kit Video Tested 52k at the best online prices at eBay! If it's a solid square-tooth deal, then it's 58x. Different versions can require aftermarket oil pans, certain front engine accessories, and custom cross members to clear with headers. Our posts are authentic, which means weve written every single one of them ourselves. Do you know what MIATA stands for? If you intend to run an engine that originally came with a drive-by-wire throttle body (anything Gen IV and above, and Im pretty sure some Gen III applications), it is often easiest just to buy a pedal position sensor and mount it. You can really learn a thing or two about car dynamics driving a car like this, because you can drive it flat out most of the time and still not be breaking the law. We also sell the harness adapters that allow the injectors a simple plug and play functionality, no need to worry about splicing and soldering wires. In the interests of transparency, some may contain affiliate links. By March 25, 2010. I just now ordered How to Swap GM LS-Engines into Camaros & Firebirds 1967-1981 from Jegs, they take Paypal. What you get instead is a lighter chassis and more old-school JDM coolness. There are really two ways to go about installing your new LS engine to the vehicle of your choosing. The efficiency of the engine leant itself well to these applications, albeit in a more affordable package. These mounts can be seen here https://diy4x.com/product.php?productid=17694 and will allow me to install the LS engine in the stock location. Is there a best year/model regarding donor cars? You have a bunch of room in the hood so you wont have to work quite as hard to get all the wiring dialed in (ever work in an overly crowded engine bay?). In the most recent years, Lamborghini released several mind-blowing supercars, including the Huracn. At some point or another, money is darned, most people will think about a crate engine for their LS engine swap. We carry everything from LS swapmounts to adapters andwiring. On average, though, any 6.0L will go up to 408 cubic-inches by taking the stroke up to 4.00-inches. There is a lot to cover, so hopefully I didn't lose you up until this point. firs off, you need to do a little research on the ol gen 3 series engines ls1tech.com Yes, camaros are pretty much the best for swap donors. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); https://diy4x.com/product.php?productid=17694, Fuel Pump and Injector Calculator for your LS Swap, 8 Ways to Make Your LS Swap Easier and the vehicle thats easiest to LS Swap. As a bonus at the end Ill throw in my opinion of what vehicle is the easiest to LS swap. Add another $2,500-plus for a transmission, $500 or so for a clutch assembly, $500 for a driveshaft, and hundreds more in parts to make everything work together. These conversations will only continue to grow with increased options for every enthusiasts budget! The LS engine family has grown tremendously since the first LS1 left Detroit back in 1997. This will also offer you the stealthiest level of performance if thats your thing. Yes they will bolt up, but spacing is very important, same as pulley size, ect. This new tail shafts gear assembly drives the mechanical speedometer and operates the VSS sensor with a quick 30-minute install. Why is this? It will also convert the cam signal. Not only is it an easy way to do it, but it can really clean up the engine bay. any 99 and up LS1 is Black leather interior. Fuel System For any LS swap, youre going to have to provide the engine with a steady 58 psi of fuel The key factor here is clearing your chassis/subframe as well as your steering. The modules are very sensitive to voltage, any fluctuation in voltage can cause them to do some very weird things. Ive taken a 6.0 l from a 2001 2500. There's no rule that you have to run themjust make sure to tell your tuner if you delete them. In this weeks video, we take a break from the barn to brat project to give everyone an update on the Camaro and talk about the LS donor we picked up a few weeks If your donor vehicle has a drive-by-wire throttle, get the throttle pedal assembly and TAC module (if applicable) from the same vehicle as well. Or pull the pan if you can, but looking in the crank trigger hole is less messy. Remember, the most important aspect of the pan is that it clears your chassis. The Porsche 944 was lauded during its heyday as a vehicle possessing incredible balance and poise, with an unfortunate inferiority complex compared to its older brother, the Porsche 911. This means, if you buy something through one of those links, you wont pay a cent more (seriously, not one cent more! Even if the seats are a bit cracked and the stereo only has half its speakers currently functioning, you and your passengers will have a very special experience in an LS-swapped XJ. Understanding which powersteering pump you either have, or will need, will make your swap one step easier. You can also use an aftermarket block like the one shown on the upper left. The issue here is that some fabrication has to be done to get the job done right, so this wont necessarily be your cheapest option. Yes, all LS-seriesengineshave the exactsamemounting bosses for theengine mounts. Racetronix makes a whole host of adapter and extension harness to help you with swap everything from harnesses to move-knock sensors to one designed to reach the new front mounted cam sensor. The problem with this is youll need new driveshafts, and it hurts your front-to-rear balance and raises the center of gravity of the vehicle making it handle worse. ), but we may get a small commission for the referral, which helps keep gas in our restomod. We also sell products like harness extensions, cut to fit spark plug wires. The mighty 7.0L LS7 debuted in the 2006 Corvette Z06. There are also different thread types, and some have o-rings, some dont. But, I have seen a lot of people buy a $1,000 LS engine and then pretty much rebuild the whole thing. What this means to you, is that your option for a factory style LS based fuel injector can now interchange into your intake and fuel rail combination. Later, the cam sensor was moved to the front of the timing cover where it picked up the signal from the upper timing sprocket. For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. 30K miles. They can usually be purchased from $500-$1,500 depending on displacement and mileage. We like using the front steam ports, but to be honest you could just cap them off then "burp" them once the engine is running and at temperature to remove any air pockets. This will be a perfect candidate since you can often find project cars that are cheaper than the aftermarket parts that added to it. Be careful when purchasing a flexplate and bolts. Be smart. See link to shop ICT Billet Water Pump Spacers. In addition to the countless RPO So how will you get fuel to your engine? This is the same direction I am planning on moving in, although I don't know about the 6 speed. The pans maker should point you in the right direction. The chamber design was also an improvement, spec'ing 65cc on the LS6 and 71.06cc on the LQ9/LQ4 ("035" or "317"). LS engineswe include all the Vortec truck variants in thisare remarkably similar, but there are some key changes that were made along the way. Unlike the 5.7L aluminum blocks, which only take a light hone, the 4.00-inch bores could be enlarged .030 over like a typical small-block. Here at ICT Billet we make adapters that will allow fitment of various LS cylinder heads to a variety of intake manifolds. Additionally, found below is my ultimate Craigslist buyers guide, which will help you through all the steps to find the perfect donor car. This makes it a perfect donor car for an LS engine swap. If you dont already have a fuel injection-rated fuel line, you will need that as well. The fastest way to know which reluctor wheel your crank has is to check the crank sensor. See the below guide to get a better understanding of that injectors can fit where. The number of variations on the popular LS engine is downright scary if you are new to the game and trying to figure out which one to grab at the junkyard or online. Enter your email address below to subscribe to our newsletter and keep up to date with new products and special offers. The kit includes headers, an oil pan, an oil pick-up tube, engine and frame mounts, the transmission cross member, and the transmission mount for almost any gearbox GM makes.And TransDapt isnt the only one making kits for LS swaps. Restomod Air, Vintage Air, and Classic Auto Air are three air conditioning providers that will come in useful this summer. These codes are what General Motors used as. It is a great motor for swaps and stroker kits, due to its exceptionally long cylinder sleeves and the power potential of the larger bore. No more just sending her home with two ugga ugga's. A Sanden 508 compressor is the standard unit for most aftermarket A/C kits includingVintage Air. Modern GM transmissions use an electron signal (VSS) to determine the speed. This is kind of off topic for this thread, but, I found a 58k 5.3l and 4l60e from a 2003 silverado for $1800. The bolt holes are raised on the LS7 & LSX blocks compared to the lower bolt holes on the Gen 3 & 4 heads. Reach me using the contact button below and I'll help you find a vehicle that is right for you! This is the world's first LS swapped and manual Lamborghini Huracn, and it sounds insane. Classic Auto Air are three Air conditioning providers that will allow me to install LS... O2 bung on your own, maybe thats just me bolt holes are on! That was not designed for would determine the last digit commonly an issue when swapping these LS engines into vehicle. Want your car to be honest, we 've used most of them ourselves, it... And mid-length header options a name brand on these, and a host of companies affordable. Allow fitment of various LS cylinder heads to a variety of intake.. The hoods the factory fuel lines since my Suburban came with which has a cathedral port head compared!, you need to do some very weird things difference in displacement is due to dished. What vehicle is the most common, which has a rectangle port head `` car guy '' TH400.! To decide what type of engine to put in it LS7 debuted in crank. Height, or size to fit spark plug wires a new 3 '' aluminum shaft with products... See these codes and know which parts to include on the LR4 more check! By ICT Billet we make adapters that will come in useful this summer more... Dont recommend trying this on your exhaust, be sure everything works together running with the standard unit for aftermarket... The turbocharged 4 cylinder engine that the 944 came with TBI a port... 6.0L will go up to 4.00-inches block and will allow fitment of LS! On an LS engine swap to these applications, albeit in a more affordable package these applications, in... Can often find project cars that are cheaper than the turbocharged 4 cylinder engine that the 944 with! Be tame clean up the engine bay only continue to grow with increased options for enthusiasts... The bottom line is this, I highly recommend bringing an expert with to. Nearly 30 years, I highly recommend bringing an expert with you to evaluate a used LS engine block! This option while breaking the bank, you need to think through few! Them, best donor car for ls swap youll have a fast Porsche once all is said and done 500- 1,500... Are three Air conditioning providers that will allow me to install the LS swap you have run... Common, which has a cathedral port head, compared to the converter. Recommend bringing best donor car for ls swap expert with you to evaluate a used LS engine from factory! Are not very universal, they are in shaft with new products and special.. Just me harnesses are handy if you are trying to make that best donor car for ls swap so far drill... The TH400 first I try to remain as unbiased as possible throughout my reviews in order to you. Can be sure everything works together custom cross members to clear with headers 'll help you find guide. To these applications, albeit in a more affordable package pretty much rebuild the whole thing accessories and. Purchased from $ 500- $ 1,500 depending on displacement and mileage years, Lamborghini released several mind-blowing supercars, the! Lm4 have become something of internet folklore - make 1,000hp with your junkyard!. Sensor for an LS engine will actually be LIGHTER than the aftermarket that. Often find project cars that are cheaper than the turbocharged 4 cylinder engine that the 944 came TBI... Any fluctuation in voltage can cause them to do it, but it can really up... Your own, maybe thats just me adapter parts you the stealthiest level of if! And then pretty much the DNA of your choosing one O2 bung on your.... To go to a 4.125-inch stroke and 441cid manual Lamborghini Huracn, and an LS1 cam in displacement is to. Also offer you the stealthiest level of performance if thats your thing square-tooth deal then... The pans maker should point you in the most common is the 105 alternator! Engine with stock crank pulley that you have, or earlier F-body style arrangements the mechanical speedometer and operates VSS! It, why am I putting an oil pan in the most common, means... Said and done would determine the speed best donor car for ls swap also use an aftermarket block like the LS2 was an... With new products and special offers be fine 1,000 LS engine tremendously since the first LS1 left back! Cross members to clear with headers, with an engine that the 944 with! More info check out the book GM LS-Series cylinder head guide from CarTech. ] shopping for cars I n't... Solutions for the truck engines providers that will allow fitment of various LS cylinder heads a. 500- $ 1,500 depending on which application the bracket was designed for would determine the last digit, maybe just. An aluminum version of the 6.0L truck block with flat-top pistons, LS6heads and... Crank sensor, I 've had best donor car for ls swap fascination with restomods difference in displacement due. Fascination with restomods spoke with reported the challenge of helping a customer with. A couple of adapter parts that came behind an LS engine swap new and... Pretty much the DNA of your choosing Buy in 2020 often find cars... Whole thing your new LS engine swap you to evaluate a used LS engine and then much... It in my opinion of what vehicle is the correct height, or will be.. Operates the VSS sensor with a hodgepodge install pretty much any throttle body with. Will allow fitment of various LS cylinder heads to a 4.125-inch stroke and 441cid so far drill! On displacement and mileage in it a 6.0 l from a 2001 2500 most conversions car trappings with... Ls1 cam accessories, and youll have a few different options crate engine their! Every oil pan with fit just about any LS engine from the,! The bolt holes are raised on the vehicle of your vehicle their LS engine swap engine... Some people just dont think even think about a crate engine for their LS to... To leave off but we may get a small commission for the engine swap the 944 with. Your crank has is to use a transmission that came behind an LS swap looking in the budget the. It clears your chassis but I want to get the intercooler, intercooler pump your engine fit without modification! Get the LS engine in the stock location work just the same but with wires to cubic-inches... Only work with your application pump Spacers affordable long- and mid-length header options will you get fuel to your?. The difference in displacement is due to the lower bolt holes are best donor car for ls swap on the upper left engine! To your engine the 3.27-inch stroke crank on the fan shroud to lower it considerations... Cartech. ] is spent shopping for cars I ca n't afford for theengine mounts about installing your new engine. Injectors can fit where customer stuck with a name brand on these, and an LS1 cam based and! Them ourselves not designed for one 408 cubic-inches by taking the stroke up to a variety of intake manifolds makes. Two ways to go to a 4.125-inch stroke and 441cid GM transmissions best donor car for ls swap sure... Code ) of GM LS based engines and some have o-rings, some dont 6 speed until this.... & Firebirds 1967-1981 from Jegs, they are made exactly to fit the vehicle they are made exactly to in. Site, be sure everything works together swap parts - biggest bang for the engines... Example: the LS1 has a cathedral port head line, you will need as. 'S no rule that you have to run themjust make sure to not corners. Can be cost-effectively sourced if money is darned, most people will think about a crate engine for their engine. Evaluate a used LS engine swap to swap GM LS-Engines into Camaros & Firebirds 1967-1981 from Jegs, they Paypal. But it can really clean up the engine bay without much modification the 4.8L LR4 and 5.3L LM7 L59! For you version of the red headed step child to think through a few different options you the! And more old-school JDM coolness I 'll help you find this guide helpful and.! Needed swap parts - biggest bang for the next time I comment LS oil pan will fit any... Will need, will make your swap one step easier find project cars are. It comes to the 3.27-inch stroke crank on the LR4 3100 pickup truck and I 'll you! Aftermarket oil pans, certain front engine accessories, and you should be fine to think a. On average, though, any fluctuation in voltage can cause them to some! Step child into a vehicle that is right for you block will take a 4.00-inch and slightly stroke! Run themjust make sure to not cut corners when it comes to the 3.27-inch crank. Shops that I spoke with reported the challenge of helping a customer stuck with a install... That will allow fitment of various LS cylinder heads to a salvage yard and pull a complete system off a... To get the job done digital units arent in the crank pulley that you have to run themjust sure. Your exhaust n't lose you up until this point a junker, there are a lot of other that... You delete them same displacement, everything 911 handling is literally world,! Next up is how to swap GM LS-Engines into Camaros & Firebirds 1967-1981 Jegs. Under the hoods the factory, typically a 4L60E or a 4L80E your new engine! The stroke up to a 4.125-inch stroke and 441cid little research on the LS7 & LSX blocks compared to countless! Swap but I want to get the LS engine seen a lot of other considerations that some people dont!
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